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[Music]

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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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from Australia for science and reason

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[Music]

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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yes it's a skeptic zone podcast episode

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number 492 for the 25th of March 2018

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Richard Saunders here with you from a

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blue sky I think there could be some

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rain later on Sydney Australia the

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seasons are turning the I think we've

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seen the last of the stinking hot

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weather I hope so and slowly but surely

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autumn is here

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although March and April can be a bit

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funny I know you don't tune in to the

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skeptics under here Sydney weather

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reports but there you go

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coming up on this week's show we're

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gonna start with the update the recent

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update to the BRIT Hermes defense fund

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story you will recall that Britt Hermes

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was a former naturopath she's now living

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in Germany who writes very strongly

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against the practices of naturopath and

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she's been threatened with legal action

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well the Australian skeptics and others

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rallied to her defense to create a legal

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defense fund so I shall be telling you

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in a little while what the latest status

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of that defense fund is and it's all

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looking very good skeptical action on

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display following that it's a reply in

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the sense to the story we brought you

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last week the interview with Kiera

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alferov from Berlin who wrote a piece

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about the problems with the skeptical

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movement or why the skeptical movement

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has not been as successful as we've been

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led to believe maybe in his opinion

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listening listening to the podcast was

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Rob palmer and susan gerbic from

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guerrilla skepticism on wikipedia and

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they contacted me and i contacted them

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and you'll hear their reply to some of

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the points raised in that story last

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week and it's nice to have a bit of a

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back-and-forth on any topic after that

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we're going to bring you a report from

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The Times newspaper from the UK about a

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homeopathic hospital a few weeks ago on

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the sceptic Zone we interviewed Michael

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Marshall from the good thinking Society

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about the decline the long and winding

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road long and slow decline of homeopathy

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in the United Kingdom and this Times

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story does revolve around the

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homeopathic hospitals mentioned by

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Michael Marshall some weeks ago then to

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round off the show I'm going to play a

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clip from a panel which I was very

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honored to chair in Las Vegas at saikhan

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last year the panel was all about the

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problems of science or the roadblocks to

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good science and the panel members were

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dr. H he developed dr. Rachel our

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reporter and noted scientist in her own

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right of course Cara Santa Maria you

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know from the skeptics guide to the

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universe and the aforementioned

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writ Hermes and what a wonderful panel

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that was I was just sitting back sort of

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steering the conversation but really it

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was those three scientists who had the

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lion's share and they were far more

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knowledgeable than me anyway I'll play

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you the last part of that panel and I'll

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put a link in the show notes to the full

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panel which goes for an hour and 20

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minutes something like that a video that

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the Center for inquire of recently put

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online oh and you'll hear some laughter

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not long after the clip starts that's

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when George Rab walked on stage with a

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bucket of ice and water it was a bit of

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a running gag now after those people who

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wrote in to me desperate to know what

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the winning score was when we did the

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skeptics in the pub the trivia now I've

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been playing the trivia over the last

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month here on the sceptic Zone we had 60

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questions I think some questions were

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worth more than one question each but

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nevertheless at the pub when we were

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playing in the pub the winning team was

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called the lepers and they had a winning

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score of 54 very high score a winning

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score of 54 so those people who were

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wondering what other people got out of

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the 60 odd questions 54 was the winning

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score

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and I would like to also tell you and

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this is something that I've been

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involved with for many years way back in

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2001 one of the first things I did when

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I joined the Australian skeptics was to

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digitize all the back issues of the

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magazine the skeptic from the Australian

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skeptics and that took the best part of

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a year because I recreated all the back

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issues and the page layout program to

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make nice clean PDFs because the

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original copies weren't so good and for

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other reasons but that doesn't matter

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however the first ten years or so it was

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decided only to use highlights from the

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magazines each of those magazines in a

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section under a section on water

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divining or astrology and that was fine

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but it was decided recently or last year

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to fully digitized all back issues of

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the skeptic magazine and I've been

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working on that now for quite some time

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bit by bit because a lot of issues were

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very in very poor condition because they

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were photocopies of photocopies and

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sometimes the text had sort of

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disappeared and it was a matter of

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recreating articles and things like that

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an interesting process but now all the

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back issues of the skeptic magazines in

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their entirety up till I think last year

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sometime are available online

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ww skeptics comdata you click the

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magazine link all the back issues and

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what I've done and you might consider

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doing something like this if you for

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example I have an iPad if you go to that

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site on your iPad surf there um Safari

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and click on one of the PDFs then it

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loads into your Safari if you then click

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the little export button at the top of

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the page you can open that PDF in your

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iBooks right on your iPad and by doing

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that you can save the entire back

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catalogue of the skeptic magazine to

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your device and I've tried this out and

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works fine takes a little time to do all

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that but now I carry around with me the

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entire history of the Australian

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skeptics is

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reported in the skeptic magazine a great

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reference great reading I'm doing a

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plane trip soon that'll be interesting

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reading for me and it's an invaluable

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resource for any anyone involved in

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skeptical studying history of the

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skeptics what we thought of this topical

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that topic over many many years anyway

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certainly worth checking out stay tuned

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at the end of the show we're going to

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have another dice challenge every few

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months on the skeptic zone I roll a

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number of dice sky dice here they are

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now

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I have a standard six-sided one that's

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you're very familiar with a 10 sided one

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which a lot of fun good for psychic

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tests 10-sided dice actually good for

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mathematics I have a 30 sided dice and a

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60 sided so we'll give that all a go at

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the end of the show and you can use your

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psychic predicting powers hmm but now

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it's time for me to run downstairs

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before running quickly back upstairs to

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continue the show run downstairs and

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won't disturb the cats they're behind me

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at the moment once sleeping on the other

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chair and once sleeping on top of the

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and I think we are enjoying the morning

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I'm gonna run a sneak tiptoe tiptoe

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downstairs have some toast

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with smoked salmon avocado and quince

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jelly while I do that I hope you enjoy

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the skeptic zone now we bring you an

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update from the Australian skeptics

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website at skeptics comdataís you Britt

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Hermes campaign reaches significant

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milestone by Tim momentum published on

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the 16th of March 2018 update the global

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campaign to support skeptical campaigner

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Britt Hermes has reached an astonishing

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milestone with over $100,000 Australian

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or a 62 thousand euro raised thanks to

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the generosity of the worldwide

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skeptical community the fundraising

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campaign organised by Australian

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skeptics Inc ASI was launched on the

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14th of January the original campaign

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goal of at least $80,000 Australian or

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50,000 euro was the amount brits lawyer

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had advised would likely be required and

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that figure was reached in less than

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nine days via more than 2000 donations

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considering the unpredictable nature of

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legal costs the final amount required

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may vary

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while the prime focus of the campaign is

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to ensure that Britt will not be

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out-of-pocket from what might be

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considerable legal costs the broader

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message goes beyond her situation as

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Hermes herself said in a recent message

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to donors quote the international

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skeptic and science community stands

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united to protect the freedom to

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criticise pseudoscience and preserve the

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scientific enterprise end quote

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this recent campaign is indicative of a

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trend over the last decade for

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cross-border skeptical action fired by

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social media disparate groups have been

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able to

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coordinate programs that raise the

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profile of skeptics globally and

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emphasize the power of joint action

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should more funds be raised than

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required to cover Brits costs they will

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be held for a period of up to 12 months

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to ensure the legal risk to Britta's

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past after which they will be put into a

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generalized global skeptics Legal

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Defense Fund we will continue to update

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readers and donors on the progress of

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the campaign and that update comes to us

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from the Australian skeptics website

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skeptics calm day you with a link in

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this week's show notes

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hello Anala needle on solo scoffs of

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deep moments been to an atlas another

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skeptic zone for weed to stop and Kitty

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snide incur moving from our seat Anna we

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may be been skeptics own Burns TV now

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last week on the skeptic zone yeah I'm

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sure you will recall we interviewed

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curial Alvaro all the way from Germany

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who wrote a piece an opinion piece an

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essay about the problems with the

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skeptical movement and why in his

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opinion it hasn't been very successful

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really over the last decade or two and

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that also is in regard to outreach well

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listening listening to the skeptic sound

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as they do every week I'm sure we had

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Rob Parma and susan gerbic from

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guerrilla skepticism on Wikipedia and

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they both sent me a note a message Rob

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sent me a text to message while Susan

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recorded something and I'll play that in

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a second but Rob says I Richard I just

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heard your interview with the qll HaRav

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on the skeptics own about the skeptical

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movement failing to do outreach to the

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public in order to change their hearts

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and minds I think I need to comment on

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what I heard you may well know what I'm

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about to say because you interviewed me

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at saikhan on this very subject but here

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goes

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I was thinking as I heard the interview

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on my car radio mentioned gorilla

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sceptics mentioned gorilla skeptics come

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on already mention gorilla skeptics the

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interview ended NGS o/w was not

276
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mentioned at all if I was part of that

277
00:13:19,650 --> 00:13:16,209
conversation I would have had to

278
00:13:23,730 --> 00:13:19,660
interject but for me joining and growing

279
00:13:25,290 --> 00:13:23,740
gso w is the best way I found to reach

280
00:13:27,990 --> 00:13:25,300
outside the skeptical

281
00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:28,000
we'll and educate those who aren't part

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00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:29,010
of our community

283
00:13:34,259 --> 00:13:31,810
before joining this team I was totally

284
00:13:36,710 --> 00:13:34,269
frustrated I wasn't able to change the

285
00:13:39,329 --> 00:13:36,720
minds of any true believers I know about

286
00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:39,339
virtually anything and I didn't think

287
00:13:43,199 --> 00:13:41,170
there was anything I could do

288
00:13:47,340 --> 00:13:43,209
differently then thanks to your podcast

289
00:13:50,610 --> 00:13:47,350
I heard about gso W in the year and a

290
00:13:52,860 --> 00:13:50,620
half since joining the GSO W team the

291
00:13:55,710 --> 00:13:52,870
thirteen articles I created or largely

292
00:13:57,630 --> 00:13:55,720
free wrote on Wikipedia to add science

293
00:14:01,139 --> 00:13:57,640
and fight pseudoscience collectively

294
00:14:04,889 --> 00:14:01,149
have had over 700 thousand page viewings

295
00:14:07,949 --> 00:14:04,899
and Counting that doesn't even consider

296
00:14:10,829 --> 00:14:07,959
the unmeasured number of views on the

297
00:14:13,560 --> 00:14:10,839
many many other articles I have made

298
00:14:16,410 --> 00:14:13,570
minor but significant skeptically

299
00:14:19,110 --> 00:14:16,420
orientated changes too how amazing is

300
00:14:23,190 --> 00:14:19,120
that I often try to visualize that

301
00:14:25,530 --> 00:14:23,200
number it's 10 or more baseball stadiums

302
00:14:28,470 --> 00:14:25,540
filled with people and that from just

303
00:14:30,780 --> 00:14:28,480
one person who a little while ago

304
00:14:33,900 --> 00:14:30,790
thought there was nothing they could do

305
00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:33,910
to help the movement one example of what

306
00:14:39,329 --> 00:14:36,610
gso w can do ironically was brought up

307
00:14:41,100 --> 00:14:39,339
by kirill he asserted that no one

308
00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:41,110
outside the skeptical movement knows

309
00:14:45,930 --> 00:14:42,970
about Randy's involvement with Uri

310
00:14:48,660 --> 00:14:45,940
Geller on The Tonight Show not true a

311
00:14:51,329 --> 00:14:48,670
long time ago I added a section to

312
00:14:54,660 --> 00:14:51,339
Geller's wiki article documenting the

313
00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:54,670
entire thing the result is about 10,000

314
00:15:00,180 --> 00:14:57,490
people per month since then have access

315
00:15:00,870 --> 00:15:00,190
to that article and were able to read

316
00:15:03,630 --> 00:15:00,880
all about it

317
00:15:05,910 --> 00:15:03,640
many may be true believers and be

318
00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:05,920
reading about this for the first time it

319
00:15:11,189 --> 00:15:08,010
may make at least some percentage

320
00:15:14,670 --> 00:15:11,199
reconsider that Geller is genuine and by

321
00:15:18,060 --> 00:15:14,680
extension maybe start to doubt all other

322
00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:18,070
whoo peddlers as a whole gso w team has

323
00:15:24,449 --> 00:15:21,490
over 24 million page views on just our

324
00:15:26,250 --> 00:15:24,459
major articles with a million more added

325
00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:26,260
every month millions

326
00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:29,050
I find that mind-boggling but with all

327
00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:30,850
the whoo in the world it's never enough

328
00:15:35,670 --> 00:15:33,490
the larger the team gets the more we can

329
00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:35,680
do so the best way I know to interject

330
00:15:39,180 --> 00:15:37,810
the skeptical viewpoint into the

331
00:15:41,550 --> 00:15:39,190
information available

332
00:15:43,290 --> 00:15:41,560
to the general public is to grow the

333
00:15:44,490 --> 00:15:43,300
size of the guerrilla skeptics team

334
00:15:47,070 --> 00:15:44,500
anyway

335
00:15:50,220 --> 00:15:47,080
love the zone but just had to point this

336
00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:50,230
out keep up the good work thanks Rob

337
00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:52,930
thanks for your point of view and it

338
00:15:58,290 --> 00:15:55,690
it's nice to have a bit of back and

339
00:16:03,630 --> 00:15:58,300
forth on this topic and here is the

340
00:16:05,940 --> 00:16:03,640
message sent to me by susan gerbic hello

341
00:16:10,260 --> 00:16:05,950
everyone this is susan gerbic from the

342
00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:10,270
GSO w wikipedia project Richard asked

343
00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:12,850
for my thoughts on the interview he did

344
00:16:19,110 --> 00:16:16,690
with Carell just last week after Rob

345
00:16:22,410 --> 00:16:19,120
Palmer who's one of my gso w editors

346
00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:22,420
reached out to Richard krill and I are

347
00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:24,250
good friends and he shared the essay

348
00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:26,770
with me months ago and I told him that I

349
00:16:33,420 --> 00:16:29,170
agreed with parts of it and not other

350
00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:33,430
parts I also know something that most

351
00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:35,770
other at most other people don't know

352
00:16:40,590 --> 00:16:37,930
the listeners who didn't read the essay

353
00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:40,600
and that is that krill did single out

354
00:16:48,060 --> 00:16:44,770
the GSO w project in his essay he wrote

355
00:16:50,010 --> 00:16:48,070
a number of sceptical initiatives are an

356
00:16:53,670 --> 00:16:50,020
exception to the rule and are

357
00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:53,680
outward-looking illustrious example of

358
00:16:59,130 --> 00:16:56,530
this is susan gerbic scrilla skepticism

359
00:17:01,410 --> 00:16:59,140
on wikipedia project it's a perfect

360
00:17:04,050 --> 00:17:01,420
example of activism that is focused on

361
00:17:06,179 --> 00:17:04,060
non skeptic audiences thanks to

362
00:17:11,460 --> 00:17:06,189
Wikipedia's reporting tools the reach of

363
00:17:13,470 --> 00:17:11,470
gso w is also quantifiable and so this

364
00:17:16,860 --> 00:17:13,480
part didn't make it into the interview

365
00:17:19,380 --> 00:17:16,870
with Richard and Rob is very passionate

366
00:17:22,530 --> 00:17:19,390
about gso W as are the rest of the team

367
00:17:24,210 --> 00:17:22,540
in fact Rob learned of gso W from the

368
00:17:26,610 --> 00:17:24,220
skeptic zone and he lives in the east

369
00:17:29,070 --> 00:17:26,620
coast of the United States we do get a

370
00:17:30,930 --> 00:17:29,080
lot of our gso w people from the skeptic

371
00:17:34,590 --> 00:17:30,940
zone and i have a large group that are

372
00:17:38,750 --> 00:17:34,600
australian so gso w has just published

373
00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:38,760
our 560 third wikipedia page

374
00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:43,930
those 563 pages have just hit 24 million

375
00:17:49,530 --> 00:17:46,330
one hundred and forty seven thousand

376
00:17:52,530 --> 00:17:49,540
eight hundred and fifty page views most

377
00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:52,540
are in English but a good chunk of these

378
00:17:59,310 --> 00:17:55,090
pages are in other languages we add

379
00:18:00,690 --> 00:17:59,320
about 34,000 page views a day and we're

380
00:18:03,300 --> 00:18:00,700
getting really close to hitting a

381
00:18:04,650 --> 00:18:03,310
hundred thousand page views a month and

382
00:18:07,350 --> 00:18:04,660
we're always looking for more people to

383
00:18:11,070 --> 00:18:07,360
train into GS o W su do please contact

384
00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:11,080
me on Facebook if you're interested so

385
00:18:15,750 --> 00:18:13,930
back to krill I've traveled all over the

386
00:18:17,550 --> 00:18:15,760
world these last few years of speaking

387
00:18:20,910 --> 00:18:17,560
to skeptic groups and I've been thinking

388
00:18:23,430 --> 00:18:20,920
a lot about these questions I disagree

389
00:18:25,410 --> 00:18:23,440
with krill about podcasts I think we're

390
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:25,420
still at the beginning of podcasts as

391
00:18:30,180 --> 00:18:27,730
influencer they're allowing us to reach

392
00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:30,190
audiences all over that miss the

393
00:18:35,340 --> 00:18:33,010
face-to-face gatherings and we need more

394
00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:35,350
podcasts especially in languages other

395
00:18:39,330 --> 00:18:37,690
than English conferences are also

396
00:18:41,550 --> 00:18:39,340
incredibly important to grow our

397
00:18:42,810 --> 00:18:41,560
community the first steps towards

398
00:18:45,690 --> 00:18:42,820
activism is when you meet people

399
00:18:48,450 --> 00:18:45,700
face-to-face and find out you're not

400
00:18:51,090 --> 00:18:48,460
alone and I hear all the time from new

401
00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:51,100
gso W people and also whenever I travel

402
00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:53,290
how important podcasting is to those

403
00:18:58,290 --> 00:18:56,050
people now here's where I do agree with

404
00:19:00,930 --> 00:18:58,300
krill other problems

405
00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:00,940
our problems are time resources and

406
00:19:05,730 --> 00:19:04,090
money we already have experts and we

407
00:19:07,740 --> 00:19:05,740
have motivated people and those people

408
00:19:11,190 --> 00:19:07,750
are usually just waiting to be told how

409
00:19:13,380 --> 00:19:11,200
to help and we need more managerial type

410
00:19:15,330 --> 00:19:13,390
people I think people are under the

411
00:19:17,250 --> 00:19:15,340
illusion that in order to lead you need

412
00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:17,260
to be an academic or part of a large

413
00:19:22,770 --> 00:19:19,650
organization and that's just not true

414
00:19:25,940 --> 00:19:22,780
what I propose our small focus groups

415
00:19:28,020 --> 00:19:25,950
with an end goal on a fixed time scale

416
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:28,030
made up of people who are not

417
00:19:33,300 --> 00:19:30,850
necessarily in proximity to each other

418
00:19:35,610 --> 00:19:33,310
but share the same goal and you can use

419
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:35,620
secret Facebook groups it's really easy

420
00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:39,610
to do it's cheap and very effective and

421
00:19:44,850 --> 00:19:41,410
I do it all the time with various

422
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:44,860
psychics psychic stings that I run so

423
00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:46,330
I'm going to give you one example real

424
00:19:49,860 --> 00:19:48,490
quick of one of our latest projects that

425
00:19:53,010 --> 00:19:49,870
we're running right now it's called

426
00:19:56,460 --> 00:19:53,020
Operation hunt-and-peck and it's about

427
00:19:58,650 --> 00:19:56,470
facilitated communication f.c is what

428
00:20:00,990 --> 00:19:58,660
it's called for short and it's the

429
00:20:03,860 --> 00:20:01,000
low-hanging fruit I mean we already know

430
00:20:06,330 --> 00:20:03,870
it's discredited and we know how it's

431
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:06,340
well doesn't work but where

432
00:20:10,500 --> 00:20:08,650
know all that there's lots of academic

433
00:20:13,230 --> 00:20:10,510
work that's already been done on it

434
00:20:14,970 --> 00:20:13,240
so it needs to go we need a success

435
00:20:16,799 --> 00:20:14,980
under our under our belt and I think

436
00:20:19,289 --> 00:20:16,809
facilitated communication is where we

437
00:20:21,269 --> 00:20:19,299
should be starting so I've gathered up

438
00:20:24,149 --> 00:20:21,279
experts and people who care a lot about

439
00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:24,159
this project they're already on on page

440
00:20:29,940 --> 00:20:27,490
with us and so that was step one step

441
00:20:31,490 --> 00:20:29,950
two is to put all the wikipedia pages in

442
00:20:34,110 --> 00:20:31,500
order that have anything to do with

443
00:20:36,659 --> 00:20:34,120
facilitated communication because when

444
00:20:38,519 --> 00:20:36,669
we start making a fuss the public is

445
00:20:40,169 --> 00:20:38,529
going to want to know what facilitated

446
00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:40,179
communication is and why should they

447
00:20:45,570 --> 00:20:43,090
care a book isn't going to work nobody's

448
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:45,580
gonna read a book about it a website or

449
00:20:50,460 --> 00:20:48,610
blog no the way you're really gonna get

450
00:20:52,049 --> 00:20:50,470
the attention of the public is to make

451
00:20:55,230 --> 00:20:52,059
sure that they have a place to go to

452
00:20:58,200 --> 00:20:55,240
that that's free and easy and it's

453
00:21:00,659 --> 00:20:58,210
Wikipedia right so that's already done

454
00:21:04,740 --> 00:21:00,669
those Wikipedia pages are completely

455
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:04,750
done in pro and con and all the

456
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:06,250
resources are there they're in great

457
00:21:12,899 --> 00:21:09,490
shape Jaso W has taken care of that so

458
00:21:15,299 --> 00:21:12,909
the third step were picking a target so

459
00:21:17,789 --> 00:21:15,309
facilitated communication hold holds

460
00:21:19,980 --> 00:21:17,799
workshops on university campuses in the

461
00:21:21,630 --> 00:21:19,990
United States and they use the

462
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:21,640
university's name to give them

463
00:21:27,630 --> 00:21:25,210
credibility so what I think we should do

464
00:21:30,570 --> 00:21:27,640
is we should try to get the universities

465
00:21:32,549 --> 00:21:30,580
to cancel those workshops so now I think

466
00:21:35,130 --> 00:21:32,559
this tactic is cheaper and quicker than

467
00:21:37,049 --> 00:21:35,140
getting these laws passed and we might

468
00:21:38,820 --> 00:21:37,059
be able we might need help from you all

469
00:21:40,529 --> 00:21:38,830
to help us out to convince these

470
00:21:43,950 --> 00:21:40,539
institutions to stop supporting

471
00:21:46,260 --> 00:21:43,960
facilitated communication so please be

472
00:21:48,539 --> 00:21:46,270
on the lookout for a call for help and

473
00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:48,549
this is just our first attempt so let's

474
00:21:52,590 --> 00:21:51,130
see if this works this tactic can be

475
00:21:55,350 --> 00:21:52,600
used for other causes

476
00:21:57,570 --> 00:21:55,360
let's live and learn and see how it goes

477
00:21:59,639 --> 00:21:57,580
and thanks Rob and Richard for

478
00:22:02,490 --> 00:21:59,649
encouraging me to record this and Crill

479
00:22:04,350 --> 00:22:02,500
I appreciate your thoughts so reach out

480
00:22:06,180 --> 00:22:04,360
to me on Facebook if you're interested

481
00:22:08,430 --> 00:22:06,190
in anything I have mentioned or have

482
00:22:13,279 --> 00:22:08,440
further questions and thank you skeptics

483
00:22:16,860 --> 00:22:15,990
now I still consider the article from

484
00:22:19,169 --> 00:22:16,870
Kill Alvaro

485
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:19,179
to be very important and worth your time

486
00:22:24,210 --> 00:22:21,970
to read but it is good to get some

487
00:22:25,660 --> 00:22:24,220
feedback from time to time thank you rob

488
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:25,670
and thank you Susan

489
00:22:47,380 --> 00:22:45,530
[Music]

490
00:22:50,500 --> 00:22:47,390
[Applause]

491
00:22:52,990 --> 00:22:50,510
calling all skeptics or listeners the

492
00:22:55,330 --> 00:22:53,000
you live end or near Glasgow or are you

493
00:22:57,549 --> 00:22:55,340
planning to visit something then you're

494
00:23:00,940 --> 00:22:57,559
in luck because the Glasgow skeptics

495
00:23:02,140 --> 00:23:00,950
have got your Monday nights sorted we

496
00:23:04,810 --> 00:23:02,150
are committed to filling up every

497
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:04,820
available Monday night talks on science

498
00:23:10,030 --> 00:23:07,490
and skepticism past speakers include

499
00:23:12,250 --> 00:23:10,040
Eugenie Scott le coin maker Marshall

500
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:12,260
Nate Phelps Tom and Cecil from cognitive

501
00:23:17,740 --> 00:23:15,410
dissonance PZ Myers Richard Wiseman AC

502
00:23:20,260 --> 00:23:17,750
drilling Noah Heath and Eli from the

503
00:23:22,539 --> 00:23:20,270
scaling atheist Simon Singh Rebecca

504
00:23:25,390 --> 00:23:22,549
Watson and a multitude of local

505
00:23:27,250 --> 00:23:25,400
academics and skeptics there's literally

506
00:23:29,350 --> 00:23:27,260
nothing better you can do on a Monday

507
00:23:31,690 --> 00:23:29,360
night in Glasgow that doesn't involve

508
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:31,700
taking their clothes off so come join us

509
00:23:35,799 --> 00:23:33,650
we've also got a vibrant online

510
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:35,809
community you can find us on Facebook

511
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:37,610
Twitter and get involved with the

512
00:23:42,350 --> 00:23:41,090
discussion glasgow skeptics self-help or

513
00:23:43,120 --> 00:23:42,360
your brain

514
00:24:02,169 --> 00:23:43,130
[Music]

515
00:24:08,360 --> 00:24:05,299
now here's a report that was published

516
00:24:11,570 --> 00:24:08,370
in The Times newspaper on Monday the

517
00:24:14,120 --> 00:24:11,580
19th of March 2018 this has been brought

518
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:14,130
to my attention by Michael Marshall at

519
00:24:27,170 --> 00:24:23,410
and for hospital where the Queen's

520
00:24:29,870 --> 00:24:27,180
homeopathy works by Christmas health

521
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:29,880
editor the hospital where the Queen's

522
00:24:35,090 --> 00:24:32,850
homeopathy works has been banned from

523
00:24:37,550 --> 00:24:35,100
offering homeopathy to the National

524
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:37,560
Health Service patients for disobeying

525
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:41,490
health service policy and ordered found

526
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:44,010
that the Royal London Hospital for

527
00:24:49,130 --> 00:24:46,850
integrated medicine has been wrongly

528
00:24:51,710 --> 00:24:49,140
charging the alternative treatment to

529
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:51,720
taxpayers the hospital is Europe's

530
00:24:55,970 --> 00:24:54,330
biggest publicly funded Centre for

531
00:24:58,460 --> 00:24:55,980
alternative medicine and has been

532
00:25:03,080 --> 00:24:58,470
offering homeopathy since it was founded

533
00:25:05,450 --> 00:25:03,090
in 18-49 the ruling will put further

534
00:25:09,290 --> 00:25:05,460
pressure on NHS units offering the

535
00:25:12,140 --> 00:25:09,300
treatment last year Simon Stephens chief

536
00:25:15,950 --> 00:25:12,150
executive of NHS England called

537
00:25:18,590 --> 00:25:15,960
homeopathy quote a misuse of scarce NHS

538
00:25:20,780 --> 00:25:18,600
funds men quotable homeopathy uses

539
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:20,790
extremely diluted remedies for which

540
00:25:24,470 --> 00:25:22,050
there is little evidence to support

541
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:24,480
their effectiveness some skeptics

542
00:25:27,470 --> 00:25:25,890
acknowledge however that the

543
00:25:29,350 --> 00:25:27,480
conversations that alternative

544
00:25:33,350 --> 00:25:29,360
practitioners have with their patients

545
00:25:35,330 --> 00:25:33,360
often have a placebo effect NHS bosses

546
00:25:39,050 --> 00:25:35,340
say that cutting funding for the

547
00:25:41,690 --> 00:25:39,060
treatment will save 50,000 pounds a year

548
00:25:43,460 --> 00:25:41,700
however Peter Fisher research director

549
00:25:46,460 --> 00:25:43,470
of the hospital and homeopathy to the

550
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:46,470
Queen insists that the decision will

551
00:25:52,250 --> 00:25:49,290
cost the NHS more as doctors have to use

552
00:25:54,860 --> 00:25:52,260
more expensive medicines instead quote

553
00:25:57,260 --> 00:25:54,870
we see a huge number of patients on

554
00:25:59,600 --> 00:25:57,270
outrageous numbers of drugs end quote he

555
00:26:01,580 --> 00:25:59,610
said quote we are still not giving

556
00:26:04,010 --> 00:26:01,590
advice on diet lifestyle and

557
00:26:06,290 --> 00:26:04,020
physiological things that is what

558
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:06,300
matters to people rather than the 15th

559
00:26:12,890 --> 00:26:10,170
drug in quote NHS bosses have previously

560
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:12,900
told the hospital not to use homeopathy

561
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:15,330
but an audit carried out under pressure

562
00:26:20,780 --> 00:26:17,970
from campaigners found widespread

563
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:20,790
breaches of the policy the hospital was

564
00:26:25,670 --> 00:26:23,250
using homeopathy but not declaring it

565
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:25,680
because it was part of a wider treatment

566
00:26:30,650 --> 00:26:28,050
which the hospital thought was permitted

567
00:26:32,750 --> 00:26:30,660
a handful of patients were treated only

568
00:26:34,790 --> 00:26:32,760
with homeopathy Michael

569
00:26:37,130 --> 00:26:34,800
all of the good thinking society said

570
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:37,140
quote the decision to end funding for

571
00:26:42,260 --> 00:26:39,930
homeopathy on the NHS in London is long

572
00:26:45,350 --> 00:26:42,270
overdue despite what is claimed by

573
00:26:47,270 --> 00:26:45,360
fringe groups and outlier studies the

574
00:26:49,220 --> 00:26:47,280
evidence on the ineffectiveness of

575
00:26:50,630 --> 00:26:49,230
homeopathy has been clear for a long

576
00:26:53,030 --> 00:26:50,640
time end quote

577
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:53,040
a spokesman for Camden Clinical

578
00:26:58,400 --> 00:26:56,010
Commissioning group which sets NHS

579
00:27:00,380 --> 00:26:58,410
funding policy for the hospital said it

580
00:27:03,020 --> 00:27:00,390
was quote committed to making the best

581
00:27:05,540 --> 00:27:03,030
use of public money and our policy is

582
00:27:07,610 --> 00:27:05,550
not to fund homeopathy treatment in

583
00:27:09,380 --> 00:27:07,620
quote the spokesman for the hospital

584
00:27:11,540 --> 00:27:09,390
said that there had been a quote

585
00:27:14,900 --> 00:27:11,550
difference of interpretation of the

586
00:27:20,540 --> 00:27:14,910
policy and quote and it had agreed not

587
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:20,550
to provide homeopathy on the NHS again

588
00:27:24,170 --> 00:27:22,050
that story comes to us from The Times

589
00:27:27,950 --> 00:27:24,180
newspaper published on Monday the 19th

590
00:27:30,500 --> 00:27:27,960
of March 2018 by Chris Smyth health

591
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:30,510
editor and thanks to Michael marshal for

592
00:27:44,260 --> 00:27:32,730
bringing this to our attention

593
00:27:54,570 --> 00:27:49,880
[Music]

594
00:27:57,210 --> 00:27:54,580
last year it was my privilege to chair a

595
00:28:01,200 --> 00:27:57,220
panel about roadblocks to good science

596
00:28:03,180 --> 00:28:01,210
it was a wide-ranging panel touching on

597
00:28:06,770 --> 00:28:03,190
many issues but I thought I'd play you

598
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:06,780
the last twenty minutes of the panel

599
00:28:13,470 --> 00:28:10,930
where dr. Rachel Dunlop Cara Santa Maria

600
00:28:15,930 --> 00:28:13,480
and Britt Hermes discussed some of the

601
00:28:23,190 --> 00:28:15,940
problems in science and possible

602
00:28:25,290 --> 00:28:23,200
solutions the ratio of an object might

603
00:28:27,630 --> 00:28:25,300
be higher because there's less people in

604
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:27,640
the community no interesting thank you

605
00:28:42,630 --> 00:28:29,410
very very very much for you it's all

606
00:28:51,030 --> 00:28:42,640
insults I'll just go back to my old

607
00:28:55,110 --> 00:28:51,040
white man club now somebody write that

608
00:28:56,310 --> 00:28:55,120
down okay well we've still got a little

609
00:28:58,380 --> 00:28:56,320
bit of time so I'd like to cover some

610
00:28:59,970 --> 00:28:58,390
other issues right now when we might

611
00:29:02,370 --> 00:28:59,980
come to think about problems in science

612
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:02,380
and one of the biggest problems dr.

613
00:29:08,820 --> 00:29:04,930
Rachel in the last few years for us

614
00:29:10,860 --> 00:29:08,830
certainly has been fraud yeah and let's

615
00:29:15,090 --> 00:29:10,870
point the finger at Andrew Wakefield

616
00:29:18,750 --> 00:29:15,100
because he is fraud wherever he is he's

617
00:29:21,630 --> 00:29:18,760
moving to LA apparently oh yeah I just

618
00:29:23,940 --> 00:29:21,640
heard last night and apparently I think

619
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:23,950
he's possibly gonna be starting a TV

620
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:26,530
show on vaccine injury and so it's gonna

621
00:29:33,330 --> 00:29:29,490
be based in LA do you know that's like

622
00:29:41,590 --> 00:29:33,340
it a TV show an actual network we don't

623
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:59,970
[Applause]

624
00:30:10,690 --> 00:30:02,590
it's nice to know George has a career

625
00:30:12,100 --> 00:30:10,700
after educated in speaking of fraud so

626
00:30:13,390 --> 00:30:12,110
no I can't take the credit for this

627
00:30:15,820 --> 00:30:13,400
either a friend of mine has been

628
00:30:18,610 --> 00:30:15,830
diligently watching all the live videos

629
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:18,620
out of the back store in America and she

630
00:30:21,490 --> 00:30:20,090
cleans that piece of information last

631
00:30:24,610 --> 00:30:21,500
night when he just mentioned that he's

632
00:30:27,010 --> 00:30:24,620
moving but to go back to fraud I mean

633
00:30:29,890 --> 00:30:27,020
the the the problem of publish or perish

634
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:29,900
never goes away in science and if you

635
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:31,690
don't know what that means basically

636
00:30:38,740 --> 00:30:34,250
peer-reviewed publications are currency

637
00:30:40,330 --> 00:30:38,750
in science they make your CV long they

638
00:30:41,830 --> 00:30:40,340
are the reason you'll get grants the

639
00:30:43,570 --> 00:30:41,840
other ways and you'll get promotions so

640
00:30:46,410 --> 00:30:43,580
you need to publish scientific

641
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:46,420
peer-reviewed papers and that is hard

642
00:30:51,070 --> 00:30:49,370
particularly in the wet sciences like

643
00:30:53,290 --> 00:30:51,080
the ball of them really but I'm speaking

644
00:30:55,270 --> 00:30:53,300
from my personal experience biology

645
00:30:57,880 --> 00:30:55,280
never goes the way you hope it goes it

646
00:30:59,320 --> 00:30:57,890
never does what you ask it to do and you

647
00:31:01,360 --> 00:30:59,330
know I mentioned earlier that I got

648
00:31:02,650 --> 00:31:01,370
completely different results in some of

649
00:31:04,210 --> 00:31:02,660
my recent experiments and what I

650
00:31:06,250 --> 00:31:04,220
expected

651
00:31:08,620 --> 00:31:06,260
but you have to somehow package that up

652
00:31:10,420 --> 00:31:08,630
into a nice shiny little paper so you

653
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:10,430
can present it to your board to your

654
00:31:15,070 --> 00:31:12,890
directors to your funding bodies and so

655
00:31:17,890 --> 00:31:15,080
there's enormous pressure on researchers

656
00:31:19,930 --> 00:31:17,900
to publish and to publish often and this

657
00:31:22,090 --> 00:31:19,940
unfortunately leads to people cutting

658
00:31:25,540 --> 00:31:22,100
corners because they are so pressure to

659
00:31:28,420 --> 00:31:25,550
do so many of us in this room would be

660
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:28,430
aware of Chris Shaw professor Chris Shaw

661
00:31:32,620 --> 00:31:30,770
who is a he's in the Department of

662
00:31:35,230 --> 00:31:32,630
Ophthalmology at

663
00:31:37,990 --> 00:31:35,240
University our University in Canada and

664
00:31:44,860 --> 00:31:38,000
he publishes anti-vaccine papers all the

665
00:31:46,990 --> 00:31:44,870
time and just recently it's so dumb and

666
00:31:49,570 --> 00:31:47,000
annoys me so much there's a technique

667
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:49,580
called Western blotting where you end up

668
00:31:55,750 --> 00:31:51,530
with these little bands that look like

669
00:31:58,150 --> 00:31:55,760
just a line on a paper and you know

670
00:32:00,640 --> 00:31:58,160
ultimately when you do develop it's like

671
00:32:02,140 --> 00:32:00,650
a photography development process for

672
00:32:03,970 --> 00:32:02,150
you to get that little band and

673
00:32:05,950 --> 00:32:03,980
ultimately when you do that you're going

674
00:32:09,100 --> 00:32:05,960
to get artifacts introduced like a hair

675
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:09,110
or a dot or something but scientists

676
00:32:14,410 --> 00:32:11,690
repeatedly do this they copy and paste

677
00:32:16,810 --> 00:32:14,420
those bands into different experimental

678
00:32:18,220 --> 00:32:16,820
lanes and maybe they flip them upside

679
00:32:20,970 --> 00:32:18,230
down or maybe they flip them the other

680
00:32:27,940 --> 00:32:20,980
way but they never remove the artifacts

681
00:32:32,710 --> 00:32:27,950
and so it's so obvious because it's like

682
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:32,720
get Photoshop out like if you're gonna

683
00:32:38,830 --> 00:32:36,890
cheat cheat problem and recently

684
00:32:42,340 --> 00:32:38,840
Christopher sure had a paper retracted

685
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:42,350
for precisely that reason the bands in

686
00:32:47,590 --> 00:32:44,210
this case were actually polymerase chain

687
00:32:49,210 --> 00:32:47,600
reaction bands and you could easily see

688
00:32:50,980 --> 00:32:49,220
that there was these two bands one was

689
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:50,990
supposed to be that untreated animals

690
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:52,130
one was supposed to be the treated

691
00:32:55,390 --> 00:32:54,050
animals but the bands who if you flip

692
00:32:58,990 --> 00:32:55,400
them and turn them they were the same

693
00:33:00,640 --> 00:32:59,000
and so the paper got pulled and his his

694
00:33:02,290 --> 00:33:00,650
wrist it's actually went all over the

695
00:33:04,090 --> 00:33:02,300
world the reports of this because it was

696
00:33:05,710 --> 00:33:04,100
controversial study to begin with he was

697
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:05,720
trying to claim that aluminium causes

698
00:33:10,110 --> 00:33:09,050
autism and he said in response well to

699
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:10,120
be fair

700
00:33:14,110 --> 00:33:12,650
nobody zooms in on these things and

701
00:33:17,110 --> 00:33:14,120
looks like you know looks at the

702
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:17,120
artifacts in them I'm like dude of

703
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:19,730
course we do that and there are people

704
00:33:24,220 --> 00:33:22,010
that work in research who dedicate their

705
00:33:27,820 --> 00:33:24,230
lives to looking for things like that

706
00:33:30,790 --> 00:33:27,830
and it's not very difficult if you have

707
00:33:33,910 --> 00:33:30,800
half a brain and then he also had said

708
00:33:36,370 --> 00:33:33,920
well in my defense the data the raw data

709
00:33:38,770 --> 00:33:36,380
has gone to China with my postdoc and

710
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:38,780
that also breaches the ethics of the

711
00:33:42,190 --> 00:33:40,610
University you're not supposed to take

712
00:33:44,290 --> 00:33:42,200
data off the premises because the

713
00:33:44,730 --> 00:33:44,300
intellectual property belongs to the

714
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:44,740
universe

715
00:33:50,490 --> 00:33:47,530
where it was generated and so it is a

716
00:33:52,500 --> 00:33:50,500
dumpster fire but this is not the first

717
00:33:55,919 --> 00:33:52,510
time this particular group has had

718
00:33:57,870 --> 00:33:55,929
papers retracted but to go back to

719
00:34:00,570 --> 00:33:57,880
Wakefield as well and I mentioned this

720
00:34:03,150 --> 00:34:00,580
briefly yesterday at SGU one of the

721
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:03,160
problems with papers that get retracted

722
00:34:08,250 --> 00:34:05,410
for fraud is that they get cited more

723
00:34:11,909 --> 00:34:08,260
often after they've been retracted that

724
00:34:13,500 --> 00:34:11,919
is a real problem and you know I spend a

725
00:34:15,540 --> 00:34:13,510
lot of time trawling the depths of the

726
00:34:22,379 --> 00:34:15,550
anti-vaccination movement online did you

727
00:34:24,869 --> 00:34:22,389
say trolling or trolling yeah and they

728
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:24,879
don't care that a papers retracted any

729
00:34:29,639 --> 00:34:27,610
way relevant to them because they're

730
00:34:32,820 --> 00:34:29,649
cherry-picking the data to get for their

731
00:34:34,740 --> 00:34:32,830
confirmation bias so it's not relevant

732
00:34:37,190 --> 00:34:34,750
to them that it's retracted that still

733
00:34:40,470 --> 00:34:37,200
is a thing anyway

734
00:34:42,990 --> 00:34:40,480
but this is the problem science tries to

735
00:34:46,260 --> 00:34:43,000
address as best it can absolutely I mean

736
00:34:48,780 --> 00:34:46,270
of course scientists on the journals

737
00:34:51,180 --> 00:34:48,790
you know the peers who are doing the

738
00:34:53,909 --> 00:34:51,190
review are the ones who are pushing for

739
00:34:57,420 --> 00:34:53,919
these retractions within the scientific

740
00:34:59,820 --> 00:34:57,430
community a retracted paper is is a

741
00:35:01,650 --> 00:34:59,830
black box you know what I mean it's like

742
00:35:03,599 --> 00:35:01,660
but it's outside of the scientific

743
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:03,609
community where the problem lies it's

744
00:35:07,710 --> 00:35:05,530
with the marketing it's with the

745
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:07,720
individuals who are using these

746
00:35:11,940 --> 00:35:09,970
retracted and and the the bad thing is

747
00:35:13,859 --> 00:35:11,950
you mentioned not only does sometimes

748
00:35:17,070 --> 00:35:13,869
especially if it's quite a famous payer

749
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:17,080
paper does it get cited more often after

750
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:19,690
it's retracted but also I mean study

751
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:24,130
after study show that the the retraction

752
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:27,490
gets no traction right that like you

753
00:35:32,099 --> 00:35:29,650
know once you you can't unring a bell

754
00:35:33,810 --> 00:35:32,109
yeah and so once you go out there and

755
00:35:35,460 --> 00:35:33,820
there's a big splash with in the medium

756
00:35:37,410 --> 00:35:35,470
people say this is what we found this is

757
00:35:38,820 --> 00:35:37,420
a real effect and then later they go oh

758
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:38,830
it turns out that effects not real

759
00:35:42,870 --> 00:35:41,650
nobody listens the retraction varied yes

760
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:42,880
but there are some great organizations

761
00:35:46,980 --> 00:35:45,490
like retraction watch I highly recommend

762
00:35:48,630 --> 00:35:46,990
following a retraction watch since not

763
00:35:50,609 --> 00:35:48,640
only do they keep their eyes out as a

764
00:35:53,070 --> 00:35:50,619
real public service of what he's getting

765
00:35:54,510 --> 00:35:53,080
retracted but they do really good public

766
00:35:55,500 --> 00:35:54,520
communication of science really good

767
00:35:57,540 --> 00:35:55,510
right around around

768
00:36:00,150 --> 00:35:57,550
to explain you know what's going on with

769
00:36:03,090 --> 00:36:00,160
that the problem is you know only nerds

770
00:36:04,980 --> 00:36:03,100
like us are reading yeah we could do a

771
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:04,990
little bit of a better job preventing

772
00:36:09,240 --> 00:36:07,690
fraud in the first place yeah I mean for

773
00:36:10,830 --> 00:36:09,250
medical journals for example and

774
00:36:12,930 --> 00:36:10,840
publishing clinical trials we could do a

775
00:36:15,270 --> 00:36:12,940
better job making sure that the research

776
00:36:16,650 --> 00:36:15,280
trials are registered and that the

777
00:36:18,690 --> 00:36:16,660
results have been published within the

778
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:18,700
appropriate time frame yeah before

779
00:36:23,460 --> 00:36:20,890
you know letting the work get published

780
00:36:25,050 --> 00:36:23,470
when it comes to like our fields of

781
00:36:26,610 --> 00:36:25,060
basic science I think we could perhaps

782
00:36:29,010 --> 00:36:26,620
do a better job of making sure our

783
00:36:32,190 --> 00:36:29,020
scripts are included perhaps in the data

784
00:36:34,410 --> 00:36:32,200
set so the statistical work could be

785
00:36:36,060 --> 00:36:34,420
checked because a lot of errors get made

786
00:36:38,430 --> 00:36:36,070
here sometimes intentionally sometimes

787
00:36:41,220 --> 00:36:38,440
not intentionally but it's another way

788
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:41,230
to check it if you have the the the

789
00:36:45,210 --> 00:36:43,330
script to look through making sure that

790
00:36:48,210 --> 00:36:45,220
the GenBank sequences or the DNA

791
00:36:49,890 --> 00:36:48,220
sequences is actually where the

792
00:36:52,890 --> 00:36:49,900
researcher says it is that it's actually

793
00:36:55,410 --> 00:36:52,900
been deposited online that these these

794
00:36:57,870 --> 00:36:55,420
little things are actually followed

795
00:37:00,690 --> 00:36:57,880
through on because oftentimes especially

796
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:00,700
as a new researcher you know I'm going

797
00:37:04,260 --> 00:37:02,410
back paper after paper after paper and

798
00:37:07,110 --> 00:37:04,270
I'm in the method section and I'm going

799
00:37:09,570 --> 00:37:07,120
through it and the results aren't where

800
00:37:10,830 --> 00:37:09,580
they say they are or that the DNA

801
00:37:13,650 --> 00:37:10,840
sequence that I'm looking for is not

802
00:37:15,690 --> 00:37:13,660
where they said it is or I'm looking at

803
00:37:17,670 --> 00:37:15,700
this statistical package and trying to

804
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:17,680
track it down and so I get halfway

805
00:37:21,900 --> 00:37:19,090
through and it doesn't make sense and

806
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:21,910
these are easy things to check and to

807
00:37:26,220 --> 00:37:24,010
require steps missing you know what I

808
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:26,230
mean you can't like I didn't tell you

809
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:28,450
how I did this I mean how are you

810
00:37:32,460 --> 00:37:30,490
supposed to emulate that and you know

811
00:37:34,380 --> 00:37:32,470
what here's here's a thought might be

812
00:37:36,180 --> 00:37:34,390
unpopular because we've talked about

813
00:37:38,130 --> 00:37:36,190
jargon in the past and and about why

814
00:37:39,690 --> 00:37:38,140
jargon is important and what jargon

815
00:37:42,810 --> 00:37:39,700
actually is in science and the purpose

816
00:37:48,420 --> 00:37:42,820
that it serves but I read a recent neuro

817
00:37:50,970 --> 00:37:48,430
skeptic blog where individuals have gone

818
00:37:52,380 --> 00:37:50,980
in and looked at the readability of

819
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:52,390
scientific articles and they're getting

820
00:37:57,090 --> 00:37:54,850
worse and worse and so maybe make your

821
00:37:59,460 --> 00:37:57,100
paper easier to understand yeah that's

822
00:38:01,740 --> 00:37:59,470
right because you know what it's really

823
00:38:03,720 --> 00:38:01,750
hard to replicate a study if if it's

824
00:38:05,550 --> 00:38:03,730
unnecessarily fake it takes you ten

825
00:38:07,020 --> 00:38:05,560
times to read this paper before you even

826
00:38:08,670 --> 00:38:07,030
understand what's going on

827
00:38:11,220 --> 00:38:08,680
I have a bugbear about this thing called

828
00:38:13,890 --> 00:38:11,230
self plagiarize ation in yes it drives

829
00:38:15,390 --> 00:38:13,900
me insane so I understand that you can't

830
00:38:17,610 --> 00:38:15,400
plagiarize that's fine

831
00:38:19,350 --> 00:38:17,620
but in the methods section of a paper

832
00:38:21,060 --> 00:38:19,360
you're supposed to describe your

833
00:38:23,340 --> 00:38:21,070
experiments to enough detail that

834
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:23,350
someone else can reproduce them and if

835
00:38:28,170 --> 00:38:26,170
you do the same methods often you cannot

836
00:38:30,300 --> 00:38:28,180
copy and paste that into the next into

837
00:38:31,830 --> 00:38:30,310
your recent publication and I had an

838
00:38:33,870 --> 00:38:31,840
experience recently what I wanted to

839
00:38:35,790 --> 00:38:33,880
find someone's method and I had to go

840
00:38:37,500 --> 00:38:35,800
back to like six or seven of their

841
00:38:40,230 --> 00:38:37,510
previous publications because they said

842
00:38:45,930 --> 00:38:40,240
as described previously got there as

843
00:38:49,470 --> 00:38:45,940
described previously okay at a book

844
00:38:51,750 --> 00:38:49,480
chapter that was in a library in I don't

845
00:38:59,270 --> 00:38:51,760
know some I couldn't access it some like

846
00:39:02,460 --> 00:38:59,280
1978 you know it's like out of French I

847
00:39:04,980 --> 00:39:02,470
wanted to just add quickly on the on the

848
00:39:08,610 --> 00:39:04,990
topic of public or parish that predatory

849
00:39:12,150 --> 00:39:08,620
publishing now has become a huge area of

850
00:39:14,190 --> 00:39:12,160
grey literature where basically

851
00:39:16,590 --> 00:39:14,200
companies are popping up all over the

852
00:39:18,690 --> 00:39:16,600
place taking advantage of the fact that

853
00:39:21,210 --> 00:39:18,700
scientists have this huge pressure to

854
00:39:23,910 --> 00:39:21,220
publish and setting up basically fake

855
00:39:26,130 --> 00:39:23,920
journals where they'll say if you pay me

856
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:26,140
300 bucks I'll publish your paper and

857
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:28,450
you'll get it within a week and there's

858
00:39:32,550 --> 00:39:30,850
gonna be no peer review except they

859
00:39:34,830 --> 00:39:32,560
don't always overtly save it but don't

860
00:39:36,450 --> 00:39:34,840
say that no they don't you know a young

861
00:39:38,790 --> 00:39:36,460
researcher might not even know no they

862
00:39:41,010 --> 00:39:38,800
don't and there is a company that has

863
00:39:43,740 --> 00:39:41,020
turned this into a huge industry now

864
00:39:46,980 --> 00:39:43,750
which has translated into conferences

865
00:39:48,630 --> 00:39:46,990
where they will look at conferences in a

866
00:39:51,900 --> 00:39:48,640
particular area of expertise they'll

867
00:39:53,670 --> 00:39:51,910
change the title of their slightly but

868
00:39:55,740 --> 00:39:53,680
not enough that you might notice it's

869
00:39:57,660 --> 00:39:55,750
not this party prestigious conference

870
00:40:00,270 --> 00:39:57,670
and then they'll just take BIOS and

871
00:40:02,460 --> 00:40:00,280
photos of scientists who are prestigious

872
00:40:04,350 --> 00:40:02,470
in the area put them on a website and

873
00:40:07,140 --> 00:40:04,360
say car is speaking at this conference

874
00:40:10,170 --> 00:40:07,150
but they haven't asked you and they even

875
00:40:11,730 --> 00:40:10,180
told you and so if you find yourself on

876
00:40:13,650 --> 00:40:11,740
this website and you email them and say

877
00:40:15,790 --> 00:40:13,660
please remove me I'm not involved in

878
00:40:17,890 --> 00:40:15,800
this they won't do that either

879
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:17,900
and then they'll charge $3,000 for you

880
00:40:22,780 --> 00:40:20,810
to turn up to a fake conference and one

881
00:40:25,930 --> 00:40:22,790
of the things that I find so frustrating

882
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:25,940
about that is that academics are so

883
00:40:30,370 --> 00:40:28,370
shrugging about it yeah I think David

884
00:40:33,580 --> 00:40:30,380
Gorski maybe invented the term shrug ii

885
00:40:35,620 --> 00:40:33,590
but i found when i was in the university

886
00:40:37,870 --> 00:40:35,630
system that i would say okay the dean of

887
00:40:40,420 --> 00:40:37,880
research here you need to stand up in

888
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:40,430
front of all the academics and warn them

889
00:40:46,390 --> 00:40:43,970
of these specific operations and what

890
00:40:47,770 --> 00:40:46,400
they do and tell them not to publish

891
00:40:56,740 --> 00:40:47,780
their do not go to their conferences

892
00:40:59,860 --> 00:40:56,750
they like to heavily in the sciences on

893
00:41:00,790 --> 00:40:59,870
our understanding of the big picture and

894
00:41:03,820 --> 00:41:00,800
so we're like well science is

895
00:41:05,980 --> 00:41:03,830
self-correcting yeah and like eventually

896
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:05,990
enough people are going to try and

897
00:41:10,870 --> 00:41:07,970
replicate better but the problem is it's

898
00:41:13,630 --> 00:41:10,880
only like that if we are active exactly

899
00:41:15,610 --> 00:41:13,640
do it yeah and relying on somebody else

900
00:41:17,740 --> 00:41:15,620
to do the work is a recipe for disaster

901
00:41:19,990 --> 00:41:17,750
especially because there's something

902
00:41:22,300 --> 00:41:20,000
good about science becoming very spread

903
00:41:23,860 --> 00:41:22,310
out you know it's no longer monolithic

904
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:23,870
which is a wonderful thing but when it

905
00:41:27,970 --> 00:41:25,490
becomes so spread out that studies are

906
00:41:29,620 --> 00:41:27,980
never replicated yeah when it becomes so

907
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:29,630
spread out that nobody is ever talking

908
00:41:35,230 --> 00:41:31,970
to one another anymore then what you end

909
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:35,240
up with is no checks and balances and no

910
00:41:39,310 --> 00:41:37,010
self correction within science and just

911
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:39,320
a flood of information and no way to

912
00:41:43,390 --> 00:41:41,450
know what is legitimate and what's not

913
00:41:45,220 --> 00:41:43,400
because we're just assuming that because

914
00:41:46,780 --> 00:41:45,230
these people are professionals they

915
00:41:48,730 --> 00:41:46,790
don't make mistakes there's a big

916
00:41:52,270 --> 00:41:48,740
difference between overt intentional

917
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:52,280
fraud and kind of under the radar

918
00:41:57,100 --> 00:41:55,130
mistakes that are made but the outcome

919
00:41:59,890 --> 00:41:57,110
often is the same and we have to

920
00:42:02,470 --> 00:41:59,900
remember that yeah absolutely really is

921
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:02,480
there a collection that lists or

922
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:04,850
someplace that we can go that has a list

923
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:06,650
of the predatory journals so I'm often

924
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:08,690
looking yeah to figure it out but I

925
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:10,130
don't know where to go retraction watch

926
00:42:14,380 --> 00:42:12,410
which is what Kara mentioned so there

927
00:42:16,570 --> 00:42:14,390
used to be a librarian called Jeffrey

928
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:16,580
Beale and he would curate a list of

929
00:42:19,540 --> 00:42:18,170
credit to publishers and it just kept

930
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:19,550
getting longer and longer and longer and

931
00:42:23,950 --> 00:42:21,650
then one day his list disappeared from

932
00:42:26,410 --> 00:42:23,960
the internet and he went dark and it

933
00:42:28,250 --> 00:42:26,420
went dark and nobody knows why if unless

934
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:28,260
anyone has an update

935
00:42:32,690 --> 00:42:30,090
in the audience so it's been mirrored

936
00:42:34,850 --> 00:42:32,700
now by retraction watch so retraction

937
00:42:37,670 --> 00:42:34,860
watch has a list of predatory publishers

938
00:42:39,500 --> 00:42:37,680
that they try to update and it just

939
00:42:41,660 --> 00:42:39,510
keeps getting longer and longer

940
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:41,670
but yeah a look-in retraction watch

941
00:42:45,830 --> 00:42:44,370
that's good advice I do like letting you

942
00:42:48,890 --> 00:42:45,840
things like that along the way in that

943
00:42:50,690 --> 00:42:48,900
these sessions well folks as Carl Sagan

944
00:42:53,690 --> 00:42:50,700
said and I remind you once more the

945
00:42:56,090 --> 00:42:53,700
method of science is tried and true it

946
00:42:58,430 --> 00:42:56,100
is not perfect but it's the best we have

947
00:43:01,640 --> 00:42:58,440
in the couple of minutes we have

948
00:43:04,070 --> 00:43:01,650
remaining to us spitballing I guess

949
00:43:06,020 --> 00:43:04,080
you'd say what can we do to improve the

950
00:43:09,470 --> 00:43:06,030
general method of science or the

951
00:43:11,870 --> 00:43:09,480
problems it faces Rachel I think that we

952
00:43:13,340 --> 00:43:11,880
should work closely with media and we've

953
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:13,350
had a lot of success doing this in

954
00:43:20,690 --> 00:43:15,930
Australia as scientists because media is

955
00:43:22,970 --> 00:43:20,700
out there are a mouthpiece and they are

956
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:22,980
often accused of badly translating

957
00:43:28,460 --> 00:43:24,930
science and writing bad articles and

958
00:43:30,380 --> 00:43:28,470
that's our fault we need to deal with

959
00:43:33,260 --> 00:43:30,390
them well we need to work with them

960
00:43:34,970 --> 00:43:33,270
because if we want people to understand

961
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:34,980
what we do if we want to attract public

962
00:43:39,470 --> 00:43:36,810
funding we want our work to be

963
00:43:42,110 --> 00:43:39,480
communicated well and so we try to do

964
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:42,120
that in Australia the other thing that I

965
00:43:45,410 --> 00:43:44,010
think is really known very well in this

966
00:43:48,650 --> 00:43:45,420
country is the website called the

967
00:43:51,050 --> 00:43:48,660
conversation and this is an academic

968
00:43:52,910 --> 00:43:51,060
website where if you have a position in

969
00:43:56,240 --> 00:43:52,920
a in an academic institution you can

970
00:43:57,830 --> 00:43:56,250
write articles for them in consultation

971
00:44:00,170 --> 00:43:57,840
with an editor so that will help you to

972
00:44:02,270 --> 00:44:00,180
structure it it's usually only 800 words

973
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:02,280
and it's it's got a Creative Commons

974
00:44:10,790 --> 00:44:08,010
license on it it's picked up by whoever

975
00:44:12,470 --> 00:44:10,800
wants to republish it and you only have

976
00:44:14,690 --> 00:44:12,480
to write one article and then that you

977
00:44:16,010 --> 00:44:14,700
can see it go viral potentially so

978
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:16,020
that's such a great way to get your

979
00:44:22,370 --> 00:44:18,090
science out to the public I think that's

980
00:44:23,240 --> 00:44:22,380
good I think that you know it's it's

981
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:23,250
hard to solve all these problems

982
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:25,410
individually and I think that we could

983
00:44:29,210 --> 00:44:27,210
put a bunch of band-aids in different

984
00:44:31,220 --> 00:44:29,220
places and we can say you know you need

985
00:44:33,350 --> 00:44:31,230
to be more responsible as a scientist or

986
00:44:35,330 --> 00:44:33,360
we need to be better about communicators

987
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:35,340
all these things are important but I do

988
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:36,810
think that something that's more kind of

989
00:44:41,700 --> 00:44:40,170
central and fundamental is that as an

990
00:44:45,030 --> 00:44:41,710
educational approach

991
00:44:47,220 --> 00:44:45,040
I personally believe that we need more

992
00:44:49,140 --> 00:44:47,230
ethics education and we need more

993
00:44:51,780 --> 00:44:49,150
philosophy education yeah within the

994
00:44:53,849 --> 00:44:51,790
sciences yeah and if more individual

995
00:44:55,890 --> 00:44:53,859
scientists but also individuals who

996
00:44:58,280 --> 00:44:55,900
don't study science at all just people

997
00:45:00,839 --> 00:44:58,290
who go through college are are

998
00:45:03,570 --> 00:45:00,849
well-versed in basic philosophy and

999
00:45:06,150 --> 00:45:03,580
basic ethics that could go a long way

1000
00:45:08,220 --> 00:45:06,160
yeah yeah 100 percent agreement right

1001
00:45:12,210 --> 00:45:08,230
you have a rather interesting

1002
00:45:13,740 --> 00:45:12,220
perspective on all this I know yeah well

1003
00:45:15,750 --> 00:45:13,750
I I have different ideas sort of

1004
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:15,760
floating through my head you know on on

1005
00:45:20,790 --> 00:45:18,490
a global scale I think we have to get I

1006
00:45:24,210 --> 00:45:20,800
would like to see more physicians

1007
00:45:26,370 --> 00:45:24,220
involved actually and and at an earlier

1008
00:45:29,250 --> 00:45:26,380
level so at the medical school level and

1009
00:45:31,170 --> 00:45:29,260
I'm really fortunate in that I have a

1010
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:31,180
bit of a younger audience so I have a

1011
00:45:36,270 --> 00:45:33,010
lot of people in med school reaching out

1012
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:36,280
to me to get advice from me about how to

1013
00:45:41,250 --> 00:45:38,770
talk to their patients and future

1014
00:45:44,940 --> 00:45:41,260
patients about alternative medicine but

1015
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:44,950
what I was going to say was that I think

1016
00:45:48,540 --> 00:45:46,810
we should start having start practicing

1017
00:45:50,130 --> 00:45:48,550
difficult conversations with people who

1018
00:45:53,700 --> 00:45:50,140
are close to us in our lives

1019
00:45:56,930 --> 00:45:53,710
so I study evolutionary genomics and I

1020
00:45:59,940 --> 00:45:56,940
was able to successfully explain my

1021
00:46:02,460 --> 00:45:59,950
research and the point of my research to

1022
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:02,470
family members who are fundamental

1023
00:46:07,859 --> 00:46:06,130
Christians Wow and we had a very lovely

1024
00:46:09,300 --> 00:46:07,869
conversation and everyone stayed

1025
00:46:11,970 --> 00:46:09,310
respectful and this is a difficult thing

1026
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:11,980
to do but I think this is a good it was

1027
00:46:16,829 --> 00:46:15,490
a safe place for me to start maybe it's

1028
00:46:18,150 --> 00:46:16,839
not always safe for people to start

1029
00:46:20,250 --> 00:46:18,160
talking about this stuff within their

1030
00:46:22,589 --> 00:46:20,260
family but it was a good place to start

1031
00:46:24,390 --> 00:46:22,599
to try to figure out how to have these

1032
00:46:26,609 --> 00:46:24,400
conversations with people who are very

1033
00:46:28,140 --> 00:46:26,619
different than me and have a very

1034
00:46:30,270 --> 00:46:28,150
different background in a very different

1035
00:46:32,310 --> 00:46:30,280
ideology than me and I think the better

1036
00:46:33,810 --> 00:46:32,320
that we can get at having these

1037
00:46:36,599 --> 00:46:33,820
difficult conversations from people from

1038
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:36,609
all walks of life the better that we are

1039
00:46:39,359 --> 00:46:37,810
going to be as a group the more

1040
00:46:45,420 --> 00:46:39,369
successful we're going to be as a group

1041
00:46:46,950 --> 00:46:45,430
will continue to grow and and I think

1042
00:46:50,570 --> 00:46:46,960
the future and the outlook is going to

1043
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:50,580
be much more successful for us and much

1044
00:46:54,470 --> 00:46:52,930
much better for us in the end if we can

1045
00:46:56,750 --> 00:46:54,480
learn to have these respectful come

1046
00:46:58,460 --> 00:46:56,760
sessions I think you're right the fact

1047
00:47:00,230 --> 00:46:58,470
that we acknowledge if there are so many

1048
00:47:02,390 --> 00:47:00,240
problems in science can only be a good

1049
00:47:04,490 --> 00:47:02,400
thing that we can address the problems

1050
00:47:06,020 --> 00:47:04,500
once we identify them ladies and

1051
00:47:08,390 --> 00:47:06,030
gentlemen what an honor it's been to

1052
00:47:10,609 --> 00:47:08,400
share the stage with such August company

1053
00:47:13,500 --> 00:47:10,619
would you think dr. Rachael Dunlop Cara

1054
00:47:16,470 --> 00:47:13,510
Santa Maria and be happy

1055
00:47:20,770 --> 00:47:16,480
[Applause]

1056
00:47:23,510 --> 00:47:20,780
[Music]

1057
00:47:26,660 --> 00:47:23,520
thank you to dr. Rachael Dunlop Cara

1058
00:47:29,900 --> 00:47:26,670
Santa Maria and Britt Hermes for your

1059
00:47:31,970 --> 00:47:29,910
insights into some of the problems in

1060
00:47:35,930 --> 00:47:31,980
science and again you can see the full

1061
00:47:57,400 --> 00:47:35,940
panel discussion links in the show notes

1062
00:48:01,910 --> 00:47:59,840
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1063
00:48:09,650 --> 00:48:01,920
zone and oh yes

1064
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:09,660
what's this opens the window another

1065
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:16,010
plane flying over there's people who

1066
00:48:21,020 --> 00:48:18,090
regularly listen to the skeptic zone

1067
00:48:25,550 --> 00:48:21,030
know that if I record my introduction

1068
00:48:25,970 --> 00:48:25,560
pieces and the end piece on a Sunday

1069
00:48:29,300 --> 00:48:25,980
morning

1070
00:48:31,010 --> 00:48:29,310
it's the flight path time in Sydney know

1071
00:48:32,540 --> 00:48:31,020
that the cats care now I promised you

1072
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:32,550
the dice game all right here we go

1073
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:35,370
we'll start with six gonna roll the

1074
00:48:42,050 --> 00:48:38,370
six-sided dice now if I keep using the

1075
00:48:44,450 --> 00:48:42,060
word dice why I should say die just just

1076
00:48:46,490 --> 00:48:44,460
put up with it here we go six so use

1077
00:48:51,620 --> 00:48:46,500
your psychic predicting power I'm

1078
00:48:55,430 --> 00:48:51,630
rolling a six and it's come up with six

1079
00:48:58,550 --> 00:48:55,440
there we go now move up to the ten sided

1080
00:49:02,290 --> 00:48:58,560
here we go ready predict away ten sided

1081
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:07,010
four that's the next number along I move

1082
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:09,210
up now to the thirty sided dice here we

1083
00:49:14,630 --> 00:49:09,570
go

1084
00:49:20,140 --> 00:49:14,640
thirty sided would be a low number our

1085
00:49:23,060 --> 00:49:20,150
high number crunch-crunch-crunch nine

1086
00:49:28,700 --> 00:49:23,070
finally and it's quite an amazing thing

1087
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:28,710
this sixty sided dice here we go rolls

1088
00:49:36,860 --> 00:49:34,170
to a slow stop on six that's interesting

1089
00:49:40,870 --> 00:49:36,870
so well I had to come up on something so

1090
00:49:43,850 --> 00:49:40,880
the numbers are six four nine and six

1091
00:49:46,940 --> 00:49:43,860
how did you do and if you got all four

1092
00:49:49,820 --> 00:49:46,950
numbers right you beat odds of about a

1093
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:49,830
hundred and eight thousand to one well

1094
00:49:54,770 --> 00:49:51,930
done coming up on next week's show

1095
00:49:57,590 --> 00:49:54,780
probably some UFOs I think I'm going to

1096
00:50:02,180 --> 00:49:57,600
be meeting with my good friend dr. Steve

1097
00:50:04,010 --> 00:50:02,190
Roberts one of the skeptics UFO expert

1098
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:04,020
oh and he always says how can you be an

1099
00:50:06,980 --> 00:50:05,370
expert in something that doesn't exist

1100
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:06,990
or probably doesn't exist of course

1101
00:50:10,779 --> 00:50:08,450
would we say UFO

1102
00:50:13,690 --> 00:50:10,789
with a general population understand

1103
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:13,700
that to mean alien spaceship not really

1104
00:50:18,220 --> 00:50:15,410
unidentified flying object

1105
00:50:20,079 --> 00:50:18,230
the popular in the popular imagination

1106
00:50:23,049 --> 00:50:20,089
I'm sure if you said to anybody have you

1107
00:50:24,759 --> 00:50:23,059
seen a UFO alien spaceship is the thing

1108
00:50:27,069 --> 00:50:24,769
they think about anyway I'm going to be

1109
00:50:29,259 --> 00:50:27,079
visiting dr. Steve Roberts and I'm sure

1110
00:50:31,420 --> 00:50:29,269
that topic will come up in fact I'm

1111
00:50:33,759 --> 00:50:31,430
spending some time in Melbourne Victoria

1112
00:50:36,670 --> 00:50:33,769
to go to this State Library of Victoria

1113
00:50:38,829 --> 00:50:36,680
to continue my research into the great

1114
00:50:41,829 --> 00:50:38,839
prediction project now this is going

1115
00:50:44,980 --> 00:50:41,839
into its second year where I'm collating

1116
00:50:48,789 --> 00:50:44,990
every published psychic prediction I can

1117
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:48,799
find made in Australia since the year

1118
00:50:54,819 --> 00:50:53,210
2000 it's quite an undertaking and there

1119
00:50:58,180 --> 00:50:54,829
are hundreds and hundreds of predictions

1120
00:51:01,650 --> 00:50:58,190
to find and then put into spreadsheets

1121
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:01,660
and then the laborious part is really

1122
00:51:06,609 --> 00:51:05,450
checking them some are too vague some

1123
00:51:10,029 --> 00:51:06,619
contradict each other

1124
00:51:11,710 --> 00:51:10,039
most the wrong some are right which you

1125
00:51:13,450 --> 00:51:11,720
would expect anyway given enough

1126
00:51:15,700 --> 00:51:13,460
predictions but it's a fascinating

1127
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:15,710
project and I think I have alluded to

1128
00:51:22,299 --> 00:51:18,890
this before I might need help and if I

1129
00:51:24,519 --> 00:51:22,309
do it might be your opportunity to help

1130
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:24,529
along the way we'll see we'll see and

1131
00:51:29,170 --> 00:51:26,690
before I go I remind that I do

1132
00:51:31,380 --> 00:51:29,180
appreciate the sponsors of the skeptic

1133
00:51:33,849 --> 00:51:31,390
zone and I don't take paid advertising

1134
00:51:35,970 --> 00:51:33,859
and what I mean by that is people like

1135
00:51:38,499 --> 00:51:35,980
you listening to the show who contribute

1136
00:51:42,099 --> 00:51:38,509
sometimes a dollar a week at $2 a week

1137
00:51:45,609 --> 00:51:42,109
$5 $20 a week via patreon or PayPal at

1138
00:51:49,839 --> 00:51:45,619
skeptics and TV and as I like to remind

1139
00:51:52,059 --> 00:51:49,849
you it's because of people like you that

1140
00:51:54,759 --> 00:51:52,069
everybody gets to enjoy well I hope

1141
00:51:56,740 --> 00:51:54,769
enjoy the skeptics urn but until next

1142
00:52:02,730 --> 00:51:56,750
week this is Richard Saunders signing

1143
00:52:08,140 --> 00:52:05,230
you've been listening to the skeptic

1144
00:52:14,830 --> 00:52:08,150
zone podcast please visit our website at

1145
00:52:18,330 --> 00:52:14,840
wwlp.com tax and to access the bat

1146
00:52:21,010 --> 00:52:18,340
catalog of episodes going back to 2008

1147
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:21,020
you can follow the skeptic zone podcast

1148
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:24,290
on twitter at skeptic zone visit our

1149
00:52:27,450 --> 00:52:26,570
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1150
00:52:30,130 --> 00:52:27,460
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1151
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:30,140
you can also support the skeptic zone

1152
00:52:36,240 --> 00:52:33,530
via patreon or PayPal the skeptic zone

1153
00:52:38,620 --> 00:52:36,250
podcast is an independent production

1154
00:52:40,750 --> 00:52:38,630
reviews and opinions expressed on the

1155
00:52:43,090 --> 00:52:40,760
skeptic zone are not necessarily those

1156
00:52:44,930 --> 00:52:43,100
of Australian skeptics or any other